Fatherland II & Joint CW Tech-Tre

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Fatherland II & Joint CW Tech-Tre

This form is intended to be a platform for the developers of Fatherland II, a modification for Hearts of Iron 3, and those who are interested in contributing with ideas.


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    Technology Tree: Land Doctrines

    Black Guardian
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    Post  Black Guardian Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:53 pm

    http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=441733

    quite an interesting thread, though more for me as event-scripter than for you... nevertheless worth reading
    Karelian
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    Post  Karelian Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:16 am

    Hmm, I´ll wait until he has tested them all before commenting further, but the possibilities are seemingly (once again) huge.
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    Post  Karelian Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:34 pm

    Thaegen, any news on the techtree? Wink
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    Post  Thaegen Thu Nov 12, 2009 1:28 am

    Karelian wrote:Thaegen, any news on the techtree? Wink

    Yes, I am working on it. But shrinking the tech square is a lot of work. You need to reposition all those different icons.

    And finding what is what, but it's all doable.
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    Post  Karelian Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:42 pm

    Thaegen wrote:
    Karelian wrote:Thaegen, any news on the techtree? Wink

    Yes, I am working on it. But shrinking the tech square is a lot of work. You need to reposition all those different icons.

    And finding what is what, but it's all doable.

    If you need any further information or there is something else I could to help, just ask. Good to hear that progress is being made nevertheless.
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    Post  Karelian Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:43 pm

    I'll post the planned effects of each doctrine path here later this week so we can discuss about them.
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    Post  Karelian Sat Nov 28, 2009 3:47 pm

    Greetings once again. This is the current status of land doctrine paths and their Cold War successors.

    Superiour Firepower - US Army doctrine
    -Early infantry motorization (increases fuel and supply consumption and speed of Superiour Firepower-INF to basically same level than MOT)
    -Focuses on quality in training (enables only equivalent training and manpower laws unless on a dire situation - more of this later)
    -Encourages limited NCO initiative from early on with more focus on small-unit tactics later (better Morale and ORG, increased Officer Demand)
    -Overall emphasis of technology and quality over quantity (increased stats and supply usage to simulate the emphasis on firepower and good equipment)
    -Extensive, efficient and fully motorized supply organization (supply bonuses, increased fuel consumption when compared to other doctrines)

    **********COLD WAR ERA**********

    1950s - Long stagnation in doctrinal thinking and land warfare research in general (has the most time-consuming postwar analysis) due the increased focus on nuclear deterrence.

    1960s - Seeks to increase flexibility - small bonuses for Suppression for all unit types (more for MAR, MNT and PAR), even more efficient supply system, increases the stats and prizes of units more than any other doctrine due the ever-increasing emphasis on superiour technology.

    1970s - Emphasis on improving defensive stats and improving firepower

    1980s - Seeks to increase the usage of NV equipment to whole new level - steep increase in prizes of MECH and ARM, significant night fighting bonuses

    Grand Battle Plan - Focuses on artillery-based firepower, defensive infantry warfare and fixed fortifications, all led by a centralized command system.

    -Training and manpower-wise this doctrine is quite versatile, enabling more alternatives between longer and shorter training systems and between professional volunteer armies and draft-based systems.
    -Strong and heavy artillery: ART gains increased attack stats, fort attack and supply consumption while loses speed
    -Limits and discourages NCO initiative, emphasizes central command: long command delays due the cumbersome command structure - relatively high Org but low Morale due the limited capabilities to deal with unexpected setbacks and quick situations
    -Infantry starts with stats emphasizing defense
    -Mid-war reforms towards combined arms focus and more offensive mindset, continues to rely heavily on ART
    -Second-best supply system after Superiour Firepower

    **********COLD WAR ERA**********

    1950s -Relatively quick postwar analysis that brings wide benefits for operational thinking - Grand Battle Plan loses much of the earlier disadvantages compared to other doctrine paths. Starts to specialize the army into three missions - homeland defense, conventional land warfare and COIN warfare. Initially bonuses for supply systems due increased standardization and increases for Suppression values for all units (allready has one of the highest Suppression values to begin with since this is doctrine for old colonial powers, France and Britain) - ART starts to lose its earlier significance quite fast.

    1960s - Specialization continues: GAR gains speed and defensive stats to represent reservist infantry used as massed homeland defense force, MAR, MNT and PAR specialize further on COIN warfare while MECH and ARM gain more stats (and prize) - stats-wise INF and MOT are jack-of-all-trades. The relative decline of ART continues.

    1970s - Increased professionalization and reliance on technology (better stats, higher prizes), starts to mimic Superiour Firepower in the emphasis on quality over quantity. - By now the earlierly really strong Grand Battle Plan ART is among the weakest of all tech trees.

    1980s - ART gains a stats boost and is now again average when compared to Superiour Firepower, Large Front and Spearhead. Earlier focus on professionalism and technology continues, bringing units stats-wise roughly on par with their Superiour Firepower equivalents.

    Spearhead - German combined arms-warfare, weak point of this doctrine is the old-fashioned supply system that is always hard-pressed to keep up with the armored spearheads
    -Early combined arms specialty and armor concentration - lower frontage to armored units and relatively high bonuses from combined arms during first war years
    -Offensively trained and equipped infantry (increased Fort and River attacks and offensive stats, other doctrines will gain similar bonuses after mid-war reforms)
    -Increased combat movement speed and decreased command delays to represent focus on quick breakthroughs and manouvre warfare
    -Strongly encourages NCO initiative: high Org and Morale but also higher Officer demand.
    -Starts with strong emphasis on quality and long training schemes, but can and will lower them if seriously threatened just like all other doctrine paths (see the end of post)
    -Will continue to rely on horse-drawn artillery and supply system: weakest WWII-era supply system of all "major" doctrine paths.

    **********COLD WAR ERA**********

    1950s - Relatively fast postwar analysis - brings little benefits as the doctrinal approach adopted late during WWII is essentially retained as it is and the earlier superiourity in land combat doctrines is in essense lost due the improving stats of other major doctrine paths.
    -Focuses on small-unit combined arms tactics with emphasis on armoured warfare and increased anti-air
    -Bonuses for the earlierly poor supply system, increased fuel demands.
    -MECH and ARM gain most stats-benefits, INF and GAR are modernized into regular mass reservist units with new emphasis on Suppression (earlier experiences from anti-partisan warfare are applied on training and tactics)

    1960s - Focus on MECH and ARM and manouver warfare is retained: new emphasis on operational surprise in the form of advanced encryption and new radio communications protocols - seeks to lower Visibility of most units. The qualitative difference between increasingly professional quick reaction forces and regular mass army increases (different unit types and prizes)

    1970s and 1980s - Follows the general trend of increasing unit prizes due advanced technology - the qualitative gap between the rank-and-file INF and GAR and professinal elite formations keeps growing.

    Large Front - Deep Battle Doctrine that emphasizes movement and focused use of units on a key parts of the battlefield to achieve breakthrough - theoretically brilliant doctrine that has some serious drawbacks

    -Early focus on combined arms-warfare (especially ART) and movement speed
    -Massive breakthrough assaults: INF, MOT and CAV units of this doctrine have the lowest frontage of all major doctrines, enabling them to amass large forces on a narrow front to achieve breakthrough by overwhelming numbers. Naturally focusing men and material in such manner will increase casualties, so Max. Attrition and defensiveness of early war stats of this doctrine will be adjusted so that such warfare will be accordingly bloody and cause much more casualties than any other major doctrine of the same period. This penalty will gradually decline.
    -Relatively low Organization but really high Morale, enabling the units of these doctrines to sustain significant casualties and still quickly regain their cohesion
    -Training and recruitment-wise this doctrine clearly support quantity over quality.

    **********COLD WAR ERA**********

    1950s - One of the quickest postwar analyses - takes the approach that land warfare will have to be studied further despite the appearance of nuclear weapons.
    -Focuses on infantry motorization, bringing their INF to same speed level and fuel comsumption than Superiour Firepower.
    -Will retain part of the massed attack approach used earlier (still lower frontages and higher casualties than in Spearhead, Grand Battle Plan or Superiour Firepower)
    -Initial focus on ARM, and ART, while GAR gains increased Suppression

    1960s- New focus on stats of MECH and SP-ART and SP-R.ART as well as mobility (ENG and all other unit types gain more river attack)

    1970s - Further emphasis on indirect fire, at this stage the best stats for all units of this type (compensated by increased supply consumption to simulate the massive prep. barrages used in this doctrine)
    -Increasing focus on AA capabilities and operational and tactical surprise - Visibility of all units
    -Starts to promote more NV equipment than earlier to bring the doctrine to same level as Superiour Firepower, Spearhead and Grand Battle Plan

    1980s - Continues along the trends set in 1970s.

    Light Infantry: Doctrine that seeks to utilize difficult terrain, tactical mobility and low-level initiative
    -Starts as a combination of Spearhead-type good org and morale and relatively short command delay and a lighter version of Grand Battle Plan defensive infantry - plain stats-wise Light Infantry INF and other units are indeed equipped with fewer heavy weapons and thus worse than their counterparts in Superiour Firepower, Spearhead, Grand Battle Plan and Large Front
    -Training schemes vary, but generally this doctrine uses large-scale conscription
    -Supply-wise this doctrine relies almost completely on Great War-styled "railroads and horses" approach, and is even worse than the supply system of Spearhead - this is not such a great hindrance for most minors that use this and fight on their national soil, but the Japanese conquest of China shall surely be affected.
    -Combined arms-bonuses are taken into full effect only in late WWII-reforms, as the emphasis is clearly on light infantry and tanks are only a minor supporting arm at best.

    **********COLD WAR ERA**********

    -1950s: The postwar reforms bring more emphasis on previously weak combined arms approach to warfare and to the previously poor supply system. The equipment situation is also slowly improved.

    1960s: New emphasis on infantry motorization finally turns Light Infantry MOT into truly motorized formations and also increases the speed of regular INF as well. Suppression values increase as well.

    1970s: Doctrine of collective defense - emphasis turns on defense, and the relative increase of offensive stats is rather low when compared to other doctrines in this era. In an approach used by Yugoslavia, Sweden, Switzerland, Austria and Finland the regular GAR and INF are transformed into a massive reservist armies whose sole aim is to make the possible conflict as time-consuming and costly as possible, so that any reasonable potential attacker will make a cost-benefit analysis and leave the country in question alone. Night-vision equipment

    1980s: Increased emphasis on counter-attack capabilities: MECH and ARM are finally given a boost and other units gain more offensive capabilities as well.

    Guerrilla Warfare: Paramilitary armies of Chinese warlords, Ethiopia, Afghanistan and later on other poor 3rd World countries, the Guerrilla Warfare starts as the worst doctrine in the tech tree, slowly developing into slightly more successfull modern guerrilla warfare.

    -Only doctrine that enables the construction of militia from the start
    -Some users of this doctrine may not even build anything better than INF and GAR in addition to MIL (event disabling construction of better units until certain reforms)
    -Really short training schemes, similar but even larger casualty penalty than Large Front to simulate the usage of manpower in order to fight despite the inadequate weaponry. Poor Organization but generally really high morale.
    -Primitive supply system - but also the lowest supply demand of all doctrines in WWII-era. Hills and mountains of China can finally be filled with myriads of poorly armed militiamen without ahistorically high Chinese IC.
    -Worst offensive stats and stats overall: the only exception is frontage
    -Minimal Officer demand and bonus for manpower growth due the almost non-existent standards for new recruits
    -Capable for defensive combat in difficult terrain
    -Systematic camouflage and general lack of radios - one of the lowest Visibility ratings of all doctrines
    -Really poor anti-tank and AA capabilities of regular units despite slight improvement during WWII.
    -Starts as the poorest doctrine but WWII-era reforms keep it from becoming a complete pushover.

    **********COLD WAR ERA**********

    1950s: Postwar analysis is quick and easy, and brings more organization and training along with better weaponry, most importantly in the form of new, simple short-range infantry AT-weapons that finally give the poor armies using Guerrilla Warfare doctrine at least some real HA punch.

    1960s: Increased terrain utilization (and even lower Visibility) and manpower combined with rising National Unity boosts allow countries using guerrilla warfare to pin more modern opponents into bloody and long wars where their resilience for prolonged conflict is a bonus.

    1970s: Slowly improving training systems (Org and Morale) and equipment (stats), but otherwise the doctrine continues to follow the successful outlines set in 1960s.

    1980s: As above.

    **Final thoughs**

    The more I think of it (and the more "All Militia" AARs I see Rolling Eyes), the more it seems that for developed nations militia should be a real last-ditch option. Could we activate it by an event for doctrines that won´t otherwise use it? Please comment and contribute if you think that something I proposed is simply wrong and/or you have ideas how to do things differently.
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    Post  Black Guardian Sat Nov 28, 2009 11:13 pm

    Great Analysis, I´m glad to see such sophisticated work done here and I really like the way this is taking.
    If all this works out, every doctrine should really feel different than any other.


    (enables only equivalent training and manpower laws unless on a dire situation - more of this later)


    I presume "later" was supposed to mean "later in another post" and not "see below" ?
    Anyway, I like the basic idea to link laws with the doctrine-approach and only having it switched if certain conditions are fulfilled.

    Now, if you get this implemented in a good way, Doctrines are almost complete?
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    Post  Karelian Sun Nov 29, 2009 2:50 pm

    Yeah, by "later" I ment another post since laws and their linking to different techs are clearly a topic for another discussion.
    And yep, once Thaegen gets the "sceleton" of the tech tree done I can start to flesh it out along these outline while we can start to prepare the infantry and armor parts of the tech tree.
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    Post  Karelian Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:16 pm

    Damn, it seems Thaegen is simply too busy with his other mod projects to do the techtree. I´ll see whether he has any work-in-progress saved and then think what to do next, since graphics aren´t really my strongest field.
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    Post  Black Guardian Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:31 pm

    Karelian wrote:Damn, it seems Thaegen is simply too busy with his other mod projects to do the techtree. I´ll see whether he has any work-in-progress saved and then think what to do next, since graphics aren´t really my strongest field.

    Just to make it clear: Graphics are unimportant for the first steps in progress. Such fancy eye-pleasing stuff can be put in when everything else is done. At least in my opinion.
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    Post  Karelian Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:09 pm

    True, but having a tech tree layout that works in-game is much more vital.
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    Post  Karelian Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:55 pm

    Since the planned tech-effects can already be added to the existing tech tree by replacing vanilla ones, I´ll plan to do little testing with them and vanilla scenarios. By adding in the modified land doctrines and then playing some stand-off games I aim to see how the AI performs with them. I´ll post a report about the results later.
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    Post  Black Guardian Sun Jan 03, 2010 3:08 pm

    Any news on how your changes feel when playing?
    It might be necessary to restrict the AI to their respective doctrine-parts, otherwise it could screw up the game - especially as long as there is no event-chain for this change.

    Apart from that, I am defenitely interested, I rediscovered my HoI3 yesterday and noticed that after 1.3 it is even somewhat playable (using a mod), apart from the fact that it is still too much of a fantasy-game for me.
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    Post  Karelian Sun Jan 03, 2010 10:28 pm

    Before I started modding the doctrine trees in I used to play the game with DiDay´s Unique Units installed and noticed that things have definitively moved towards right direction even though the whole potential of the game is still somewhat unused due few annoying features.

    As for the actual modding: Right now I´m trying to find good excact starting variables for certain key things (like the increased casualties and reduced frontage of Large Front Doctrine, for example) I´ve used techs for each doctrine path with one reserved for unit stats and other for combat events even though this crams the tech info-part full of data - I haven´t had time to test whether all effects included to the techs work correctly in game. With this approach I hope to get every doctrine path to the game on the same time - and once I manage to master the basics of AI programming I can make sure they won´t research any other doctrine paths than their own. With all that done I should be fine.

    There is still much to be done though. It has been a busy weekend due the fact that the outside temperature at the moment is -30°C (-20.2 Fahrenheit to you Anglos out there) and that means that I prefer to use wood-based heating instead of electricity to keep the house warm, and that takes some time.

    I´ll post you the modified files once I´m pleased with the balance, in addition to first AARs of actual playtesting.
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    Post  Karelian Tue Jan 05, 2010 6:27 pm

    The general outlines of the typical characteristics and strengths and weaknesses of each doctrine path are now working in-game. Yet there are still two things I haven´t been able to solve.
    Right now I can´t find the topic I swear I saw previously somewhere on the forums - how to stop the possibility to infinitively re-research certain techs. I want to make the re-researcheable combat event and org/morale techs to have five levels. The start stats-tech are working ok, once they are researched (and they are since the beginning once I edit the history files) they cannot be re-researched.

    After this I just advice the AI not to research anything else than it´s own doctrine path and we´re set for playtesting.

    Code:
    mobile_warfare = {

       combined_arms_bonus = 0.1
       attack_movement_speed = 0.02
       attack_delay = 48
       supply_throughput = -0.01
       supply_transfer_cost = 0.01

        }
        infantry_brigade = {
       default_morale = 0.10
       default_organisation = 5
       soft_attack = 0.5
       hard_attack = 0.25
       softness = -0.05
       build_time = 50
       officers = 14
       river = { attack = 0.05 }
       fort = { attack = 0.05 }
        }...
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    Post  Black Guardian Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:15 am

    I want to make the re-researcheable combat event and org/morale techs to have five levels.

    Code:
    allow =  {  not = {  TECHNAME = LEVEL (5, in your case) } }

    Interestingly enough, it was me answering the question in the paradox-forum "previously" Wink
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    Post  Thaegen Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:52 pm

    Karelian wrote:Damn, it seems Thaegen is simply too busy with his other mod projects to do the techtree. I´ll see whether he has any work-in-progress saved and then think what to do next, since graphics aren´t really my strongest field.

    Yes, sorry about that.
    I am doing a lot of work for Storm of Steel. I am Vazaal there, (should have used the same account name, would made things easier;-))

    I didn't have enough time to make a whole new tech tree.
    At the time I wasn't sure how to handle it. Now I am better with it.

    I saw a post from Black guardian where he offers to make an economy system together which works for both our mods. I find it a good idea, but it's not my call.

    Karelian, the hardest part for you is to make the new techs like this.
    Technology Tree: Land Doctrines - Page 2 2009_110

    You could ask battlecry from Storm of Steel if you could use his tech template. I can make it now myself, but I really have to much to do for Storm of Steel. (I really want a playable mod out so fast as possible;-))

    Greetings


    Last edited by Thaegen on Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:01 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Post  Thaegen Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:54 pm

    Black Guardian wrote:
    I want to make the re-researcheable combat event and org/morale techs to have five levels.

    Code:
    allow =  {  not = {  TECHNAME = LEVEL (5, in your case) } }

    Interestingly enough, it was me answering the question in the paradox-forum "previously" Wink

    Does this work? I thought there was a problem with shutting techs down like that.
    Something about not getting removed from the research que. That you had to do it manualy, which is no problem for a human player, but for the it is AI..
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    Post  Black Guardian Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:23 pm

    Might have been a problem in 1.2, for the latest patch I remember the following line in the changelog:

    - Once a tech is completed when doing manual research, prerequisites for next level tech are now properly checked prior to adding it to research queue


    Does this answer your question? Wink
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    Post  Thaegen Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:39 pm

    Interesting.

    I cleary missed that line;-)
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    Post  Karelian Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:52 pm

    Greetings once again Thaegen, and thanks for the info. However, first I want to get the WWII-part of the land doctrines into the game to test how they balance out and work in practice. Once that is done, it is time to think about the graphics layout and the usage of potential templates. Personally I fully support modder cooperation since a cooperative community can achieve things that few mutually hostile modder groups could not.
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    Post  Thaegen Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:23 pm

    Thaegen wrote:Hey

    Technology Tree: Land Doctrines - Page 2 Testikuva


    Does this still need to be added?
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    Post  Karelian Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:47 pm

    Yes, with the initial stats-tech added to the left side of each doctrine path as seen in below:

    Code:
    *Superiour  Firepower*  -  *Superiour  Firepower 1936*      -  *Postwar analysis*  - *Cold War Doctrines*
                                *WWII-Era Reforms 1939*                                    *Cold War era reforms*

    In other news I´ve finished the WWII-part of the tech tree and will now start to modify the AI files so that it will research only one doctrine path.
    Then I´ll add appropriate techs for warring parties and start hands-off test games with 1939-, 1941- and 1944-scenarios. Very Happy
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    Post  Karelian Sat Jan 09, 2010 12:23 am

    Hmm, all the techs are in game, but now I have to find a way to limit their effects to various countries...although I´ve edited the History-files, units still gain stats from other doctrines...
    I guess I´ll have more work ahead, but at least there´s progress Rolling Eyes
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    Post  Thaegen Sat Jan 09, 2010 12:53 am

    Karelian wrote:Hmm, all the techs are in game, but now I have to find a way to limit their effects to various countries...although I´ve edited the History-files, units still gain stats from other doctrines...
    I guess I´ll have more work ahead, but at least there´s progress Rolling Eyes

    If they researched the tech the unit gets the bonus.
    You can limit the techs by adding not in the allow line.
    So if you follow the Large front doctrine,
    you should add in all the other doctrines the allow = { not = { large_front_doctrine = 1}}


    Maybe I am misunderstanding, but if you make techs only researchable for certain countries, don't you limit the players freedom?

    Edit: or do you mean that when you change the history countries files and you change the start lvl's it don't show up at your chosen level?
    Edit2: Karelian check you pm
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    Post  Karelian Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:00 am

    Well, the final plan is still to allow players to open another doctrine path if they wish to do so. Naturally this will cause event-bases troubles as the military leadership begins an internal debate about the recent changes in strategic thinking.

    What I´m trying to do at the moment is merely have the doctrines to the game in some form to playtest their intented effects.
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    Post  Thaegen Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:17 am

    If the tech is not unresearched it will give a bonus to an unit.
    Only solution is to get that tech level to unresearched or make for each doctrine path unique brigades.

    So if you go down large front doctrines,
    a whole bunch of duplicate units are activated by events: lfd_armor_brigade in example.
    This ofcourse will give a problem because there is for the moment no way to remove brigades from game and replace them with others.
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    Post  Karelian Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:32 am

    Well, we are wiser in this regard once 1.4 comes out. Thanks for your advice nevertheless. When given choise, I would still personally adopt the approach where techs alter the stats of the units when compared to the possibility of adding unique brigades to the game - since we aim to simulate Cold War era in addition to WWII, that would lead to myriads of unique brigade types in longer games.
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    Post  Black Guardian Sat Jan 09, 2010 12:39 pm

    Hmm, all the techs are in game, but now I have to find a way to limit their effects to various countries...although I´ve edited the History-files, units still gain stats from other doctrines...
    I guess I´ll have more work ahead, but at least there´s progress

    Of course they gain the bonus if the ai researches the doctrines it isn´t supposed to. Maybe your AI-modifications were not complete? Otherwise I can´t get your problem, maybe I´m simply too dumb (or still too tired)

    Another easy way to prevent ai from researching foreign doctrines is

    Code:
    allow = {  NOT = {  AND = { ai = yes
                                        NOT = {  [this-doctrine-start-tech] = 1  }
                                      }
                             
                          }                     
                  }

    This tech is NOT allowed if the country is ai-controlled and has not yet researched the start-level of the doctrine in question. If it has, it can research. If it isn´t ai, it can research as well.
    Just be careful that you don´t give them the starting-tech through the history-panel, then everything is fine.
    Karelian
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    Post  Karelian Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:56 am

    I knew I should have taken a screenshot to demonstrate the problem in the first place. Here goes:
    While the tech system itself seems to be ok...
    Technology Tree: Land Doctrines - Page 2 Hoi34d

    Technology Tree: Land Doctrines - Page 2 Hoi35
    But on a closer look the units still have bonuses from techs that are not researched, at least not according to the history file.
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    Thaegen


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    Post  Thaegen Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:48 am

    Hmm

    I am not certain, but I think I have the same problem.
    When I add to my techs in the history file 'techname = 0'
    it is still activated in game.

    Is that what you are saying, tech is deactivated in history files, but still shows activated in game and by being activated in game it gives the bonus?
    Karelian
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    Post  Karelian Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:16 pm

    Precisely. Adding tech_name = 0 to history files doesn´t help, neither does removing them completely from history files. Puzzling, isn´t it?
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    Post  Thaegen Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:45 pm

    Karelian wrote:Precisely. Adding tech_name = 0 to history files doesn´t help, neither does removing them completely from history files. Puzzling, isn´t it?

    Indeed, I too tried deleting everything;-)
    I am hoping fo find a solution for it soon.
    I will let you know when we find one.
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    Post  Karelian Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:08 pm

    I´ve been editing the 1944-scenario OOBs while waiting for 1.4, but I recently noticed that DiDay´s Unique Units may have found a workaround for this feature of the engine by the usage of "hidden" techs effects. Could we pursue a similar approach?
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    Post  Black Guardian Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:38 pm

    Karelian wrote:I´ve been editing the 1944-scenario OOBs while waiting for 1.4, but I recently noticed that DiDay´s Unique Units may have found a workaround for this feature of the engine by the usage of "hidden" techs effects. Could we pursue a similar approach?

    Given the fact that 1.4 has already been announced and will be released in February (which is not that far away) and taking into consideration that I am currently doing nothing as well because I hope for a law = ... trigger that would make my work with the economy-events a WHOLE lot easier than any workaround that needs testing and bla, I rather propose to wait for 1.4
    In the meantime we can play around with working things like Army-Techtree or Navy-Stuff if we like. I think that yields more results than wasting our time with workarounds that are hopefully obsolete soon enough.
    Especially as this mod is still faaaaar away from working or even release - there is simply no need for pressure Smile
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    Post  Karelian Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:58 pm

    Yep, even though I´m still naturally optimistic about our eventual success. I´ll return to the subject in February or whenever 1.4 finally comes out Wink
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    Post  Karelian Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:30 am

    Some news on this regard as well: I asked around in the forums and Devildread kindly pointed out a curious feature of the engine:
    if a tech affects a certain unit type, like infantry, it will be displayed in the unit files. From this I concluded that the problem I´ve been struggling with is caused by this feature, as seemingly it also makes these techs to overlap affect unit stats a "ghost techs", whether researched and in loaded country file or not.

    This explains the messed unit stats I´ve seen so far when testing the tech tree. I´ll do more testing later today to find out ways to bypass this problem. One workaround I could think of in such a short notice would be the creation of stats-wise nearly identical unit types (spearhead_infantry, deep_battle_infantry and so forth) that would still retain their stats and belong under single doctrine line.
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    Post  Karelian Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:28 pm

    And behold: the problem of overlapping unit stats disappeared when I removed the references to unit types.
    Right now I´m seriously considering the option to create doctrine-specific unit types for each doctrine path - the alternative approach would be to use events that fire once certain tech is researched, providing the same changes to unit stats. On a first glance both approaches have their pros and cons.
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    Post  Black Guardian Wed Feb 24, 2010 7:15 pm

    Karelian wrote:And behold: the problem of overlapping unit stats disappeared when I removed the references to unit types.
    Right now I´m seriously considering the option to create doctrine-specific unit types for each doctrine path - the alternative approach would be to use events that fire once certain tech is researched, providing the same changes to unit stats. On a first glance both approaches have their pros and cons.

    We have to think about the consequences for the other technology-fields. If we add 4 kinds of Infantry for each major doctrine path we have to re-script all other techs influencing infantry stats (Weaponry, Gear, etc.)

    If we use events, we have to write one for every technology (using sophisticated triggers we can minimize the number of events required)

    The question is, which one is easier, more convenient and disrupts the playability least.

    Probably the tech-solution, on the other hand people would ask why we have "Inf: SA + 0,5" displayed 4 times.

    Furthermore, it all makes the doctrine-switching much less convenient (regardless of wether using tech or events to bring the units into their respective shape). Thus, the question arises: Disable doctrine-change at all?

    I think at least for the first releases, it has a low priority anyway - so, disabling them is not hard, changing the code in later releases is also not that hard, if we ever want to approach this problem. Until then, everyone sticks to his school of thinking.

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