Fatherland II & Joint CW Tech-Tre

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Fatherland II & Joint CW Tech-Tre

This form is intended to be a platform for the developers of Fatherland II, a modification for Hearts of Iron 3, and those who are interested in contributing with ideas.


3 posters

    Technology Tree: Armour

    Karelian
    Karelian


    Posts : 230
    Join date : 2009-08-11

    Technology Tree: Armour Empty Technology Tree: Armour

    Post  Karelian Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:24 am

    Scaling down to battalion-level unit structure means that tank units of this mod will indeed be "pure" tank units. This means that their stats such as Softness and especially terrain penalties should be adjusted accordingly.

    When considering the tech tree in general, I am a bit unsure what to think about the HoI 1-style approach that vanilla HoI 3 uses for upgrading units. While it works well for infantry I find it somewhat flawed for portraying complex weapon systems such as tanks and combat aircraft. I think the principle of researching component techs and then combining them freely into models is a great new asset of the game, but I also think that it should be tweaked somewhat, if possible.

    For Armour tech tree this would mean the following: Research would still be divided into four subcategories just like in vanilla, since the division between gun, armor, engine and reliability equals well with the real-world difficulties of finding balance between firepower, protection, mobility and operational sustainability. The key difference I would like to implement to the mod is the way individual units stats can be updated. Currently research on better light tank gun, for example, immediately starts the upgrade process of all light tank units in the field. Here I would like to see return towards HoI2-styled model upgrading to better reflect the historical way new models were brought to service. I wonder if it could be possible to link the upgrade process to the research of one "lock tech", in this occasion the battalion tech?

    Here's an example of the tech setup and the way I thought it might work in-game:

    French player has researched the following techs from Medium Tank-part of the Tech Tree (that is divided in very vanilla-like fashion roughly like the text below:

    47 mm SA 35 Tank Gun (Firepower 1938) V-8 Petrol 190 hp Mobility 1938)
    Sloped Cast Armor 47mm (Protection 1940) 510L Fuel Tanks, 130km Off-road Range (Operational Sustainability 1936)

    Somua S-35 (Medium Tank Battalion 1938)

    Now, in order to be able to benefit from the potential stat upgrades these techs will provide to his units, he has to research a "lock tech", Somua S-35 (Medium Tank Battalion 1938) - once researched, it will allow the upgrade system to upgrade the existing medium tank battalions to the new model that will gain the new stat bonuses accumulated from the research conducted in Firepower, Mobility, Protection and Operational Sustainability. The trick in this approach is the fact that researching of the new actual model would be time-consuming and the upgrading process would also be costly and slow affair. Meanwhile the research of new sub-techs would not be tied to the actual model research. So while the production model and stats would remain the same, the research on new weapon systems, armor, engines and so forth could continue, adding potential stats to future models once they are researched. This would create quite different situation compared to the current vanilla system where new technological advantages are soon affecting the performance of the frontline troops. This way the mod would force the player to do strategic decisions when to stop testing prototypes and design a new production model AFV. With right first_offset and additional_offset values this system could additionally simulate the hectic pace of war year AFV development - with the ability to research new model almost yearly, the warring nations could either quickly update their existing designs or research more advanced models while producing their trusted warhorse designs. Later on the year delay between new models would grow substantially, reflecting the new Cold War situation and the fact that new tank designs were becoming more and more technically complex.

    As for the four tech groups themselves, I've been thinking the following stat-effects:

    Firepower: Weaponry between the Great War-era hull-mounted machine guns to gyrostabilized +120mm tank guns and specialized ammunition. Increases Soft and Heavy attack and later on supply consumption as well (reflecting the rising costs of specialized weaponry)

    Protection From first Great War-era 90%-angle riveted armor plates to latest composite and reactive armor systems. Increases Defensiveness and Toughness, fuel consumption (the heavier the AFV, the more fuel it consumes) and decreases Softness and maximum speed.

    Mobility Engine, tracks, power transmission system, wading or swimming equipment. Increases maximum speed, fuel consumption and moving rate in difficult terrain and weather conditions.

    Operational Sustainability Maintenance demand, operational on- and off-road range and general reliability of the design. Decreases supply and fuel consumption, increases the IC cost of the design.

    The actual armor tech tree layout can IMO be kept quite like it is, but I would implement Super-Heavy models to the last techs of Heavy category and instead replace them with MBT chassis. Each of the four armour unit types would have their own four subcategory techs, as mentioned above.
    Light - Armoured Cars
    Medium - Self-Propelled Arty, Tank Destroyers
    Heavy
    MBT

    The rest of the techs of Armour section could be kept in quite vanilla-like layout. This is what I had in mind for them:

    Antitank Guns: From the first at-guns to equivalents of Rapira-3. Certain levels of this tech could (and actually should as well) be linked to Medium and Heavy Firepower techs so that infantry version of AT-guns has to be researched first before same gun can be used on tank design. Gives Hard Attack to Antitank and Tank Destroyer units, later on HA bonus for infantry as well. Later models will increase fuel consumption of AT and infantry (heavier late-war AT-guns must be drawn by specialized vehicles)

    Recoilless Rifles and Antitank Missiles: From the first 75mm recoilless rifles and first-generation wire guided antitank systems to 105 mm M40s and SACLOS AT missiles. Increases Hard Attack of AT and TD, but primarily boosts the stats of infantry units. Also increases supply demand to reflect the rising costs of more advanced systems.

    Anti-Aircraft Weapons: From early AA-MGs to latest radar-controlled gun SAM systems. Increased Air Attack and Defense of AA and other unit types.

    Artillery: What the name implies, from Great War howitzers to modern long-range artillery guns. Linked to Self-Propelled Arty research so that new gun type has to be researched first before it can be adapted to SP chassis. Increases the stats of Arty and other unit types.

    SP-Artillery: Self-propelled artillery systems from WWII-designs like Wespe and Bishop to NBC-protected Cold War types from 1970s.

    Rocket Artillery: From early Nebelwerfers to spin-and-fin-stabilized HMRL systems. Increases the stats of R-Art - since we have plenty of unit types to spare, I suggest we should implement Sp-Rocket Artillery as well?
    Black Guardian
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    Post  Black Guardian Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:49 pm

    The much I like this approach, I cannot find a good way to implement this after having an intensive look at the code.
    I thought of everything that came to my mind, from bundling all component-effects into the prototyping-tech, which is impossible because of the variety of options, to building and event that gives the stat-bonus.

    Event-wise it could work, unfortunately the techs you are researching are directly tied to the components that are displayed in the unit-overview - which means, the unit will begin upgrading as soon as the tech is researched, even if there is no bonus for the unit (at least this is my theory - to be proved by a practical test) and even before Prototyping (which is my favored name for the unlocking-tech) is researched. I have not yet found a way to solve this problem, except the events that trigger after the prototyping giving the combined bonuses according to the techs researched prior. Then, however (if I am right), units would still upgrade their components step by step and not after prototyping is researched - only the stat-bonuses would be given to them with this event with one bang. Which is not helpful either.

    The problem: there is no "activate component"-command. Component is activated by the named tech-research, at least for my judgement.

    Code:

    tank_gun = {
       armor_brigade = {
          soft_attack = 1.0
          hard_attack = 1.0
          toughness  = -0.5
          maximum_speed = -0.25
       }

       allow = {
          tank_brigade = 1
       }
       
       research_bonus_from = {
          automotive_theory = 0.3
          artillery_practical = 0.6
          armour_practical = 0.1
       }

       on_completion = automotive_theory

       difficulty = 2
       
       #common for all techs.
       start_year = 1936
       first_offset = 1938   #2nd model is from 1936
       additional_offset = 2   #one new every 2 years
       folder = armour_folder
    }

    If anyone has a good idea to solve this, go ahead and tell me - otherwise it seems like we are stuck with what we can do apart from that.
    Karelian
    Karelian


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    Post  Karelian Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:52 pm

    Black Guardian wrote:If anyone has a good idea to solve this, go ahead and tell me - otherwise it seems like we are stuck with what we can do apart from that.

    Oh well, retaining vanilla-style approach with four separately upgradeable tech subcategories works adequately fine as well. Is the proposed layout otherwise ok?
    Black Guardian
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    Post  Black Guardian Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:19 pm

    Karelian wrote:
    Black Guardian wrote:If anyone has a good idea to solve this, go ahead and tell me - otherwise it seems like we are stuck with what we can do apart from that.

    Oh well, retaining vanilla-style approach with four separately upgradeable tech subcategories works adequately fine as well. Is the proposed layout otherwise ok?

    It is, though I had preferred your initial approach if it was feasable Smile
    Maybe (who knows?) I am totally wrong with my impression and we can indeed use your initial approach somehow, but only experience will show (practical modding value Laughing )
    What about Armored Cars and Halftracks we scratched in the Infantry-section? What do we put where?
    Karelian
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    Post  Karelian Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:25 pm

    Black Guardian wrote:It is, though I had preferred your initial approach if it was feasable Smile
    Maybe (who knows?) I am totally wrong with my impression and we can indeed use your initial approach somehow, but only experience will show (practical modding value Laughing )
    What about Armored Cars and Halftracks we scratched in the Infantry-section? What do we put where?

    Well, with the current way component upgrading works the only potential work-around I could think of would simply decrease upgradeable components to 1 (model), and that would require us to create thousands or even more individual models to cover all possible combinations of the four subtechs and their stats combinations. No

    Hell, we would lose nothing by kindly asking Paradox to add activate_component-command to their code Wink

    And while I haven't thought that as much, Armored cars and Halftracks could be replaced by repair techs?
    Black Guardian
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    Post  Black Guardian Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:22 pm

    referring to this (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=434601)thread, I propose to make every unit completely developeable on its own. The discussion about TD has a valid point for some other areas. In fact, sometimes it could be unpractical to develop or neglect certain tech because it does increase the stats of a different unit in another way than the one you originially wanted to improve.

    I think it is better to give the player a choice for every unit, not bunched up in categories.
    Karelian
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    Post  Karelian Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:05 am

    True. Tank destroyers, for example, should only benefit from light and medium tank reliability, as well as AT-gun research up to certain point. Can we make certain techs to give blueprints for other techs? This way researching tank armor, for example, would only give potential benefits for TD research without forcing the player to alter the stats of units he might not want to change?

    As for anti-tank units themselves...I think we should consider renaming AT to general "Antitank Battalion", allowing us to use them to simulate the changing nature of antitank warfare from first early light AT-guns to latest missile weapons.
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    Post  Black Guardian Mon Nov 09, 2009 6:17 pm

    I had another idea to achieve the same aim you wanted to (activation of components).
    As we can activate techs by event, the following concept came to my mind:

    1. Component: Basic technology
    - "Tank Design"
    -> Triggers an event
    (needs a long time to research!)

    2. Event: Design choice:
    -gives you the choice wether you want a fast, reliable, well-armored, balanced or well-armed tank.
    -> activates components regarding your choice

    -> New tank design according to your preferences


    Another model could be possible:

    stay with the 4 different components Armor, Speed, reliability, firepower - however, they will not give you stats but only unlock the 5 different design-technologies:
    -Reliable Tank Design
    -Fast Tank Design
    -Robust Tank Design
    -Balanced Tank Design
    -Armament-focussed Tank Design

    which then add the stats to the tank. Not as ideal as a possible "activate_component"-command - but for now, it should serve. We still have 5 different Design-approaches that allows players to customize their tanks while remaining with a little bit of realism.
    Karelian
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    Post  Karelian Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:29 pm

    Black Guardian wrote:I had another idea to achieve the same aim you wanted to (activation of components).
    As we can activate techs by event, the following concept came to my mind:

    1. Component: Basic technology
    - "Tank Design"
    -> Triggers an event
    (needs a long time to research!)

    2. Event: Design choice:
    -gives you the choice whether you want a fast, reliable, well-armored, balanced or well-armed tank.
    -> activates components regarding your choice

    -> New tank design according to your preferences

    By making "Tank Design" a single tech we are IMO on the risk of over-simplifying things when compared to your other proposal.

    Black Guardian wrote:stay with the 4 different components Armor, Speed, reliability, firepower - however, they will not give you stats but only unlock the 5 different design-technologies:
    -Reliable Tank Design
    -Fast Tank Design
    -Robust Tank Design
    -Balanced Tank Design
    -Armament-focussed Tank Design

    which then add the stats to the tank. Not as ideal as a possible "activate_component"-command - but for now, it should serve. We still have 5 different Design-approaches that allows players to customize their tanks while remaining with a little bit of realism.

    I liked this option better than the first one, even though I'm fully aware how script-intensive it would be. This is still the best workaround for achieving results that are similar to the original idea.

    How would the 5 design-techs actually upgrade? Excluding the other options for the same tech level so that once Robust Medium Tank 1943 is researched, would the player then be able to choose Balanced or Fast Medium Tank 1945, for example?
    Black Guardian
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    Post  Black Guardian Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:24 am

    I think so, as the design is completely new anyway. It would be a bit too harsh to restrict changing your model. A feasable alternative, if you want to make this choice a choice that matters for more than 2 years could be to treat "balanced design" as a transitional design that gives the option to research another specialization next time around.
    Instead of
    "Fast Design" -> "Robust Design"
    it would then be
    "Fast Design -> "Balanced Design" -> "Robust Design"

    However, I don´t think this is nessecary. Maybe some historical analysis would help? Was it common to switch Tank-designs rather fast or was the process more gradual?

    If there is no good reason we´ll leave it out and just give the different designs different research-boni from practicals / theory to represent the different knowledge required / gained.
    Karelian
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    Post  Karelian Tue Nov 10, 2009 2:59 am

    We really have to plan this little more before going ahead - I always find it hard to kill my darlings when previously well-thought idea proves to be unfeasible in practice. Especially since you mentioned event activating stats according to several alternatives I keep on coming back to the concept of "Current combination of 4 Components + Prototype Tech = final stats" - but should we try to pursue this approach via events the number of possible combinations would have to be reduced radically somehow...Perhaps by forcing the player on keeping all 4 component techs on relatively same level with a maximum research ahead of 2 levels in a single field, after of which they would be forced to either research the other components further or research a prototype. This way we might be able to reduce the number of possible tech combinations (models) enough, down to a level where it would be practical to use events to give the units their final stats?

    If it is really possible to create events that are activated once certain combination of techs is researched?
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    Post  Black Guardian Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:27 pm

    Okay, here´s another idea I got after reading (spying?) a little bit in the Core-Forum. Actually, I didn´t really spy and copied there idea, but was rather inspirated by their discussions:

    Someone mentioned the word "chassis" for tanks and an idea came to mind:

    What about making Chassis as an non-upgradeable part (testing wether can_update = no can also be applied to land technologies... I see not reason why it shouldn´t work) and having the different components replaceable?

    Of course, the techs you research should be dependent on your chassis - you can hardly put a modern-day car engine into an oldtimer and expect it to have the same perfomance. So if you want better components on your vehicles, you must also design new Chassis (which should give quite a good bonus here and there) which require you to scrap the old units using them if you want to fully modernize your forces.
    This means of course, that such chassis are not regularly updated every 2 years but rather in 5-10 years time. In the meantime, you can play around with the different upgrades in between.


    Furthermore I want to test wether techs can be un-researched with the command that can push them to the next level. Can a tech be reduced from 2 to 1 by applying a negative value here? (You know which command I mean? I don´t have it´s exact shape in mind right now, will look up if you don´t)
    Karelian
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    Post  Karelian Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:27 am

    Hmm, interesting. While making the chassis non-upgradeable makes sense in itself, this approach would force us to create some kind of a solution for the AI so that it won´t field tank divisions based on obsolete chassis in later game. Testing the unresearch option should be easy enough, I´ll take a look at it this week.

    Edit: Check your PM.
    Simples...
    Simples...


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    Post  Simples... Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:21 pm

    Honestly i don't like that aproach.

    I think that we can use the "Vanilla System" adapted, for have good a good simulation.
    Karelian
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    Post  Karelian Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:34 pm

    Simples... wrote:Honestly i don't like that aproach.

    I think that we can use the "Vanilla System" adapted, for have good a good simulation.

    How would you adapt the vanilla system? In its current state the vanilla system is not a good simulation, that´s why we´ve discussed different approaches to change it. Constantly updating the weapons in use makes sense for infantry and small arms, but being able to research new components like armor, engine and weapons for tanks and being able to update them "on the field" is a solution that should be changed.

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