Fatherland II & Joint CW Tech-Tre

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Fatherland II & Joint CW Tech-Tre

This form is intended to be a platform for the developers of Fatherland II, a modification for Hearts of Iron 3, and those who are interested in contributing with ideas.


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Roeben
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    The Prisoners of Silence - A proposal for mod background scenario

    Karelian
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    Post  Karelian Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:32 am

    Greetings.

    I was pleased to discover that the work for your Cold War mod continues in HoI3 as well.
    I was even more pleased to discover that you are currently looking for background scenario or alt-history timeline for your mod, since I happen to have something that might hopefully help you out.

    What I'm about to present you is loosely based on "Hiljaisuuden Vangit", a little known Finnish alternative history role-playing game. Years ago another Finn, a history student named Sampsa Rydman used this game and several other alt-history scenarios and combined them into a interesting alternative history website called Valtakunta.
    The site is currently off-line and nobody knows whether Rydman is going to continue his project or not. The important thing is that I have taken over where he left and received rights to use his work. The project begun as a HoI 2 AAR and has since grown considerably into a wide counter-factual history of tripolar Cold War.

    If you feel like this scenario might be suitable for your new background story or if you have any questions, feel free to comment here or PM me in Paradox forums.

    http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=263106

    Some of the key changes in this timeline are:

    -Herman Göring stays in politics and instead of him Luftwaffe is led by a competent commander who pays more attention to experimental "future programs" and is more skillful in convincing Hitler of their importance. As a result Me-262 is brought to production a year earlier, and Luftwaffe is thus able to contest the Allied air supremacy in Western Europe during the critical days of Operation Overlord.

    -Geli Rauball doesn't kill herself after the historical feud, but instead marries Hitler in secrecy in 1934. Marriage calms Hitler down somewhat and makes him focus less on grand strategy and more on his personal life. But when Geli eventually does kill herself in September 1940, Hitler becomes severely depressed and gives his generals even more responsibility and freedom in leading the war effort.

    -Wilhelm Canaris gets caught for treason before the historical date, and purged Abwehr is able to score significant espionage victories: they discover the notorious "Rote Kapelle" spying network and find out the Allied cracking of Enigma. With renewed Haifisch-encryption and better cooperation between Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine, the Germans are more successful in the Battle of Atlantic - while they are unable to starve Britain to submission, the war in the sea ties down more Allied resources longer than in OTL.

    -Without the interference of Hitler, Barbarossa plan focuses against Moscow and the German offensive manages to seize Moscow and hold it through the winter in 1941, thus paralyzing the railway supply system of Soviet Union.

    -Despite the typical infighting of German administration, Ostministerium and Heer leadership gain the upper hand in controlling the mess of German occupation politics in the East, resulting to a more lenient occupation policy that ultimately starts a new civil war in occupied Soviet territories between the partisan movement and the pro-German collaborators of minority nationalities and Russian Vlasovist militias. As the risk of massive civil unrest in the rest of the Soviet Union keeps rising, Stalin decides to quit the war rather than risk a new revolution.

    -In 1942 Germany manages to reach Volga and severe main Soviet oil supply routes, and after another winter of ferocious fighting in the East without significant contribution by Western Allies in Europe, and in June 1943 Stalin opts for a temporary truce in the Eastern Front with the intention of backstabbing Germany once the Western Allies commit significant forces to European theater of operations. As the Italian campaign stagnates and Overlord fails, Stalin is forced to face the fact that Soviet Union has to return to the war alone. The massive Soviet reorganization and buildup is still underway when Germans conduct their first successful nuclear test - to counter this new threat the Soviets initiate a nuclear program of their own, and the uneasy truce continues in the Eastern Front.

    -Despite the difficulties the U-boats cause to their supply lines the Allies iniated Operation Torch along historical date, driving the Axis forces out from Africa and invading Sicily and later Italian Peninsula in 1943. Mussolini falls from power, but is later on saved by German commandos like in OTL and is set to lead the RSI in north Italy. Since the Germans are able to contribute more forces from the Eastern Front and the terrain favors the defender, the Allies fail to move further northwards after seizing Rome.

    -The combination of poor weather, German decision to place two infantry regiments (instead of one in OTL) to front in Omaha Beach and the proximity of strong German panzer formations and adequate Luftwaffe fighter cover for their movement turn Operation Overlord into a massacre that fails to win foothold from continent. Eisenhower is forced into bitter retirement, and Churchill loses the next elections as well. After their failure in Normandy the Allies intensify their air warfare campaign, seeking to subdue Germany by strategic bombardment. Between 1944-45 Germany is gradually able to cause enough casualties to Bomber Command, forcing them to regroup. By now FDR is dead, and the first atomic bombs are dropped to Hiroshima and Nagasaki, resulting to historical Japanese capitulation.

    Reluctantly the Allies decide to use the bomb against the Nazis as well, but the bomber carrying the nuke to Berlin is shot down. Now the Allies focus on building up their stockpiles of A-bombs to defeat Germany by a massive series of nuclear strikes (similar to OTL Operation Broiler planned against USSR), but due the slow production rate of new bombs Germany is able to finish their own A-bomb program and conduct a successful test detonation in the steppes near Astrakhan.

    -Faced with the threat of German nuclear attack to London, harassed by V2 strikes at home and new Type XXI Elektro-submarines on the seas, the new British Labour government opts for negotiated peace, persuading the United States to abandon the former policy of unconditional surrender.

    Zürich Accord finally ends the devastating conflict on 22nd of April 1946. The Cold War begins.
    Roeben
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    Post  Roeben Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:49 pm

    I actually like this a lot.
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    Post  Black Guardian Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:02 pm

    As I already stated in the PM, I like it as well and I seriously hope that General Grant will agree to this as well Smile
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    Le-Boehm


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    Post  Le-Boehm Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:34 am

    Perfect!
    I assume so we get all factors we need for a good scenario start up.

    But there are still some fancy post-war questions.

    Will there be still a Free France, which only owns some minor colonial areas and is massive supported by the allies? Or will de Gaulle go into his own little insurrection against the New France (Vichy France didn't seems to fit as the Germans would leave Northern France and Paris will become the capital again. I know that there is still a great threat through the "island-carrier" England, but I think also that post-war Germany wants France as an ally and so there are some concessions needed.)

    The Fate of Scandinavia.
    Simply the reestablishing of Norway and Denmark, or the Foundation of a Scandinavian-Union (Claimed from Germany by ideological reasons and the wish to have a strong Northern-ally which can resists the allied threat of invasion) witch is taking ongoing accession-negotiations with a still neutral Sweden and maybe even a strong Finland (Finno-Scandinavian-Union)?
    With one of the biggest Naval Bases worldwide in Neu-Drontheim guaranteed to the Germans.

    Balkan.
    A Permanent partition of former-Yugoslavia between Italy, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria and Croatia, which could lead to an ongoing insurrection under Tito?

    They Fate of Algeria, Libya and the whole Mediterranean Sea.
    Grants the Zürich Accord the former Areas?
    Or would be there also a guaranteeing of free access and free trade through an internationalization of Gibraltar and Suez. Administrated by some kind of mirror/alternate UN. (Maybe with its Headquarter in Reykjavik, as Island becomes demilitarized by Zürich Accord as both blocs fear that the other side will establish large Air and Naval bases.)

    An 4th Bloc Movement in the Islamic World supported by an semi-independent India an the Asian Tiger-States. This could let to some minor Colonial-Conflicts which could escalate to proxy-wars or even more.

    Whole South America threatens to become place of a big proxy war as an Pro-German Argentinian + ??? (Bolivian?) Alliance tries to dominate the whole continent.

    Should Red China still won the Civil War. So we had together with rest-USSR still a red threat?
    The problem is when the USSR never takes Manchuria and gave this with massive support to Mao, would he still win the war?
    Or would China still be a divided country with a high risk of ongoing civil war?

    Would Himmler's dream of the Burgundian SS-Duchy become true?
    Or will it come to a second Night of the long knifes, were Himmler is murdered and replaced by the more capable and more realistic Heydrich (A Change in our timeline I also would prefer, as it also plausible and important in Fatherland.)

    There is lot of possibility for this timeline Wink
    Karelian
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    Post  Karelian Wed Aug 12, 2009 4:26 pm

    Le-Boehm wrote:Perfect!
    I assume so we get all factors we need for a good scenario start up.

    But there are still some fancy post-war questions.

    Thanks for your feedback, here are some answers.

    Le-Boehm wrote:Will there be still a Free France, which only owns some minor colonial areas and is massive supported by the allies? Or will de Gaulle go into his own little insurrection against the New France (Vichy France didn't seems to fit as the Germans would leave Northern France and Paris will become the capital again. I know that there is still a great threat through the "island-carrier" England, but I think also that post-war Germany wants France as an ally and so there are some concessions needed.)

    Here's what happened to mainland France, that is indeed an important ally of the Reich in New Europe.
    http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5887802&postcount=18

    Meanwhile de Gaulle and his Comité Francais de la Libération Nationale ally with local strongmen in Africa, and turn the remaining French colonial empire in Africa into a loose federation known as the Union Française, the French Union. Syria and Lebanon have declared independence as in OTL, while the territories of Indochina first become UN protectorates and then declare independence - later on Maoist uprisings in Southeast Asia cause new Cold War conflicts in these parts of the world.

    Le-Boehm wrote:The Fate of Scandinavia.
    Simply the reestablishing of Norway and Denmark, or the Foundation of a Scandinavian-Union (Claimed from Germany by ideological reasons and the wish to have a strong Northern-ally which can resists the allied threat of invasion) witch is taking ongoing accession-negotiations with a still neutral Sweden and maybe even a strong Finland (Finno-Scandinavian-Union)? With one of the biggest Naval Bases worldwide in Neu-Drontheim guaranteed to the Germans.


    This timeline sees the Germans "restore" Danish and Norwegian independence, while Finland takes over Eastern Karelia and Kola Peninsula becomes namely Finnish area under German military administration. All three states are headed by governments that Berlin sees fit. Norway and Denmark have plenty of German military bases on their soil. And as for Sweden:
    http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7821341&postcount=234


    Le-Boehm wrote:Balkan.
    A Permanent partition of former-Yugoslavia between Italy, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria and Croatia, which could lead to an ongoing insurrection under Tito?

    See the map for postwar border changes: https://2img.net/r/ihimizer/img31/1651/neuropakakkonencg3.png
    Yugoslavia was indeed divided up, and while the local resistance especially in Bosnia struggled on to the 1950s the partisan movement was gradually crushed and Josif Broz himself was captured and executed. The main flashpoint in the Balkans is in former Macedonia, where the radical wing of IMRO still continue to demand independent Macedonia trough the methods of political terrorism.

    Le-Boehm wrote:They Fate of Algeria, Libya and the whole Mediterranean Sea.
    Grants the Zürich Accord the former Areas?
    Or would be there also a guaranteeing of free access and free trade through an internationalization of Gibraltar and Suez. Administrated by some kind of mirror/alternate UN. (Maybe with its Headquarter in Reykjavik, as Island becomes demilitarized by Zürich Accord as both blocs fear that the other side will establish large Air and Naval bases.

    First of all, one of the few things the remaining Axis and Allies agreed upon in Zürich Accord was the end of open hostilities - the rest of the peace treaty was basically just regocnition of the new status quo. Iceland and Denmark are independent states and US military has major air and naval bases on both islands.

    Algeria becomes the troubled major support region of de Gaulle's UF, Libya is first a British puppet and later on aligns itself with New Europe once Gaddafi and his Baathists take over. The choke points of Mediterranean stay in the hands of the West - Spain never joined to WWII, so Gibraltar is still controlled by Britain. Nasser sought to seize Suez channel, but his attempts were repulsed in the Middle-Eastern War.

    Le-Boehm wrote:An 4th Bloc Movement in the Islamic World supported by an semi-independent India an the Asian Tiger-States. This could let to some minor Colonial-Conflicts which could escalate to proxy-wars or even more.

    With the western markets shut off from global trade, nations like India and Indonesia gain new importance in the eyes of US economy. Political Islamism will indeed rise after the Middle-Eastern world, with Muslim Brotherhood rising to power first in Egypt and then spreading their ideology from there. India is indeed independent, and since the European markets are not available for American goods, the US economic interests will have strong impact to UF territories in Africa and to other important states like India and Indochina. Later on India will also have plenty of conflicts to worry about: the border dispute with China in the northern mountains, hostile Pakistan in the west (supported by Germany) and equally troublesome Bangladesh in the east (supported by China.)

    The major colonial conflicts are raging in Africa. Congo becomes a mess as Western powers, China and Soviet Union all support different parts in the complex civil war. Meanwhile Germany seeks to sustain Portuguese colonies and supports apartheid South Africa and Rhodesia.

    Le-Boehm wrote:Whole South America threatens to become place of a big proxy war as an Pro-German Argentinian + ??? (Bolivian?) Alliance tries to dominate the whole continent.

    Initially South America is more troubled with Maoist guerrilla movements and frequent US military interventions to Central America. Later on Argentina and Chile indeed aling themselves closer to New Europe, resulting to a major Cold War crisis during the Falklands War.

    Le-Boehm wrote:Should Red China still won the Civil War. So we had together with rest-USSR still a red threat?
    The problem is when the USSR never takes Manchuria and gave this with massive support to Mao, would he still win the war? Or would China still be a divided country with a high risk of ongoing civil war?

    Operation August Storm did still take place in 1945 - Stalin was beginning to realize that his attempt to play Allies and Germany against one another in Europe had failed, and was desperate to gain more credibility to his own leadership by gaining new victories for world revolution. The weakened geopolitical position of Soviet Union was still shown when US pressured Soviets to withdraw from Korean peninsula, resulting to unified, pro-western Republic of Korea. With Japan and Korea as new US allies in the region and Germany seen as the main threat globally, the "China Hands" in State Department are unable to convince the Truman Administration to support the grumbing Chinese Nationalists on OTL scale, resulting to Maoist victory in the Chinese civil war.

    Later on this decision comes to haunt the Americans as Mao begins to export his revolution to Southeast Asia, Africa and South America. Since de-Stalinization does not take place and the weakened Soviet Union peacefully resolves the border disputes with China, the Sino-Soviet split does not take place in OTL scale. The relations with China and Soviet Union remain warm, with friction caused mainly by the fact that the new leadership of USSR (the troika of Malenkov, Beria and Bulganin) seeks a political detente with the West while China becomes the main supporter of Communist revolutionary movements in the Third World.

    Le-Boehm wrote:Would Himmler's dream of the Burgundian SS-Duchy become true?
    Or will it come to a second Night of the long knifes, were Himmler is murdered and replaced by the more capable and more realistic Heydrich (A Change in our timeline I also would prefer, as it also plausible and important in Fatherland.) There is lot of possibility for this timeline Wink

    Flanders and Wallonia are nominally independent states with local branches of NSDAP controlling the civil administration.
    Here's what happened in the original version, in-game events could naturally have other options available as well:
    http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5886824&postcount=13
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    Post  Black Guardian Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:28 pm

    The choke points of Mediterranean stay in the hands of the West - Spain never joined to WWII, so Gibraltar is still controlled by Britain. Nasser sought to seize Suez channel, but his attempts were repulsed in the Middle-Eastern War.


    Shouldn´t have the Germans a significant interest in helping Egypt with the nationalization of the Suez canal? Why shouldn´t they support Egypt and put pressure on the allies but let Egypt lead a hopeless war? They could gain a new ally and more influence by supporting Egypt...
    Just my thoughts about that (We will probably include "ahistoric" (e.g. differing from your timeline) options anyway to events/decisions)

    And you probably meant Iceland and Greenland, not Denmark, didn´t you? Wink
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    Post  Karelian Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:05 pm

    Black Guardian wrote:Shouldn´t have the Germans a significant interest in helping Egypt with the nationalization of the Suez canal? Why shouldn´t they support Egypt and put pressure on the allies but let Egypt lead a hopeless war? They could gain a new ally and more influence by supporting Egypt...
    Just my thoughts about that (We will probably include "ahistoric" (e.g. differing from your timeline) options anyway to events/decisions)

    Naturally, and so they indeed did while also supporting Baathist uprisings in Syria and Lebanon. Together with the desperate situation of Palestinian Civil War this development made the US and Britain to initiate Operation Damask, starting the Middle-Eastern War.

    For Egypt, see these along the rest of the articles about the Middle-Eastern War:
    http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7820446&postcount=65
    http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7884229&postcount=77
    http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8905754&postcount=207

    After the war Egyptian public is disillusioned with political Baathism and Muslim Brotherhood rises to power, starting a new era of political Islamism in the Middle-East.

    Black Guardian wrote:And you probably meant Iceland and Greenland, not Denmark, didn´t you? Wink
    Indeed, that was an odd typo from my part.
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    Post  Le-Boehm Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:00 pm

    After some reading I must admit that you did a great work with your alternative history. There must went a lot of time into it.
    And in the end you have something plausible and also enjoyable to read.
    Also when I have in some aspect another opinion/belief Wink

    Just some minor language comments, as I'm a native German speaker (even it may not fit in this forum):

    - KMS Nibelung | In German it had to be "Niebelungen". Nibelung is the English vision. Its the name of an ancient dwarf folk without a real singular form in modern German.

    - KMS Valkyrie | Should be the German word Walküre

    - Grossdeutschland-class | Please with this mysterious German 'ß' to Großdeutschland (But I'm not sure if this name would used after the philosophy behind the renaming of KMS Deutschland to KMS Lützow)

    - The Same for the Grossadmiral-classes it hat to be Großadmiral.

    - Ruhrstal-Aerospatiale => Ruhrstahl-... with h. Simply Misspelling

    - RjPz Jaguar I => Could be RakJPz ... as this was the short form in the Bundeswehr. Certainly this is an BRD shortcut, so its your decision.

    - KampfPanzer Kaiser Tiger => Kampfpanzer (KPz) Kaisertiger. I see that you wanted a climax to Königstiger, but unfortunately the Königstiger is a real animal (German name for Bengal tiger) and the Kaisertiger not...

    - SchützenPanzer Vielfraß (Spz Mk. II Vielfraß E3) => Schützenpanzer Vielfraß (SPz II Vielfraß E3
    Mk. or Mark is a british designation in German simply SPz II. I really dislike this choosing of a name. I know that especially in English Wolverine sounds cool but in German Vielfraß means "Much-Eater" in a childish language. I doubt that the Wehrmacht would name its IFV in such a way...

    - 31. SS-Feldjägerdivision 30. Januar*
    => Feldjäger is the somehow wrong term. I think you want to name the Special Forces Division of the Waffen-SS. But Feldjäger/Feldgendamarie is the traditional name for German Military Police Formations. I know that the Bundeswehr Feldjäger also have their own specialized units, but those are SWAT-like Access teams.

    I would suggest: 31. SS-Jägerdivision zbV or 31. SS-Jagddivision zbV (zbV for "zur besonderen Verwendung" "for special purposes" What you surly now Wink)

    Also please SS-Luftsturmbrigade Walküre Wink

    Please excuse this commentary but in your excellent work, those are some little points that hurt my German eyes Wink
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    Post  Karelian Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:00 am

    Le-Boehm wrote:After some reading I must admit that you did a great work with your alternative history. There must went a lot of time into it.
    And in the end you have something plausible and also enjoyable to read.
    Also when I have in some aspect another opinion/belief Wink

    Just some minor language comments, as I'm a native German speaker (even it may not fit in this forum):

    Please excuse this commentary but in your excellent work, those are some little points that hurt my German eyes Wink

    Thanks for the feedback. As a Finn who hasn't studied German my work is indeed plagued by such grammatic errors. Heck, I can't even write the letter ß with Finnish keyboard Rolling Eyes
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    Post  General Grant Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:07 pm

    I fully support this storyline, wich trough many small historicaly 'plausible' facts manage to make an interesting set-up. Smile

    I have no much time to discuss it right now, but I'll be on vacation in only two days so I'll soon have alot more time to put into this.

    I am sorry to announce that due to my computer's age and speed I won't be able to run HoI3 on it until I eitheir improve it or buy another one, eitheir case that will probably happen in early autumn.
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    Post  Black Guardian Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:15 pm

    General Grant wrote:I fully support this storyline, wich trough many small historicaly 'plausible' facts manage to make an interesting set-up. Smile

    So it shall be. I´m very happy with this decision - Fatherland officially has a storyline now Very Happy
    I think I will start reading it in detail very soon, though I must first invade the pacific for the Emperor ^^
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    Post  Karelian Fri Aug 14, 2009 1:35 pm

    General Grant wrote:I fully support this storyline, wich trough many small historicaly 'plausible' facts manage to make an interesting set-up.

    Excellent news. If you have any questions or comments about the storyline, feel free to ask.
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    Post  Le-Boehm Fri Aug 14, 2009 1:41 pm

    And in which year we want to start our main scenario?
    - 22nd of April 1946 - Zürich Accord?
    - 10th of August 1948 - Consolidation of New European Order?
    - 4th of January 1951 - Fuhrers-Death?
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    Post  Karelian Fri Aug 14, 2009 11:29 pm

    Le-Boehm wrote:And in which year we want to start our main scenario?
    - 22nd of April 1946 - Zürich Accord?
    - 10th of August 1948 - Consolidation of New European Order?
    - 4th of January 1951 - Fuhrers-Death?

    Personally I prefer the first one, allthough all start dates have their advantages.

    In 1946, for example, occupied Soviet territories are a bloody mess, civil wars rage in France and Italy and the German administration is in turmoil with all the behind-the-scenes scheming preparing for time when Hitler finally dies.

    Meanwhile Stalin is impatiously waiting results from the Soviet nuclear program, and is busy trying to keep Soviet Union together despite the local uprisings in Central Asia and civil unrest in rest of the Soviet Union as well.

    Chinese Civil War rages on, de Gaulle and CFLN try to maintain their control of former French African colonies by creating a new colonial union state and Britain struggles with reconstruction efforts and the first steps of her decolonization process. In the United States Truman seeks to implement his National Security Strategy, creating the United Nations and seeking to contain Germany within the boundaries of New Europe.

    Civil War looms on the horizon in British Mandate of Palestine, Indochina is restless, Turkey, Sweden and Switzerland all feel increasing political pressure from Germany alongside with neutral, pro-Axis Spain and Portugal.
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