What has happened this time?

Phönix wrote:I have to dissagree with this one, since 1938 the US has been steadily building up for war, after 1940 with only one goal, elimination of the Nazi. They won against Japain, ok, but theire true enemy the Reich now controlls all of europe, the only contact that they had was operation Overlord, and they lost utterly. Think about Vietnam. They lost there and it was a traumatic expirience, not becouse the Vietnamese came to America and Annexed New yourk, , but becouse they failed to win. The states were never in any real danger, everyone knew that, so the war for the States was to help theire allies. And yes they saved Britan, but I think that Britan would have saved itself. Not in the afterwar years dont get me wrong. In the "cold war" they would have lost without the US economy, sure, but that will only show itself over time, after the cold war becomes an everyday term.
I dont know if you ever saw the, by now banned, propaganda movies of the States agaisnt Nazi-Germany. I dont mean Casablanca etc, by the way, I mena the Donald duck and Mickymouse cartoos. When you make movies like that and arent able to defeat them, then in the eyes of the world and your own, you've lost. I mean how much more could they loose against Germany? Its note like they could actualy ever land in Canada and conquer the States, like one does in HoI3.

Is the term "Grand Area Strategy" familiar? When the US rearmament program begun, high-level planners and analysts in the Council on Foreign Relations and State Department concluded that in the postwar world US would seek to "hold unquestioned power", acting to ensure the "limitation of any exercise of sovereignty" by states that might interfere with its global designs. According to October 1940 memorandum E-B19 of the previously mentioned research group recommended to President Roosevelt and to Department of State that the key war aim was to achieve military and economic supremacy for the United States "in the non-German world" which was to be organized under the US aegis as a "Grand Area", including the Western Hemisphere, the former British Empire and the Far East. Only when it became fairly clear that Germany would be defeated in OTL, the plans were extented to include as much Eurasia as possible.

I don´t really buy the cartoon argument I´ve seen a few, typical wartime propaganda that had nothing to do with the actual war aims of the political and military leadership of the US.
It is easy to call the outcome of WWII a draw in Europe and victory in Asia, something the common citizens of US will be able to accept. The Nazis are stopped in Europe and the Japs have been crushed and Pearl Harbour avenged - sure it´s less than optimal situation but it´s definitively not a true defeat.
The book I quoted earlier is called "Imperial Brain Trust: The Council on Foreign Relations and United States Foreign Policy"
and its written by Laurence H. Shoup,William Minter and based on government sources.

Phönix wrote:I didnt meant that suddenly the German-Americans will all turn Nazi, but a cold war tends to get ugly. I mean even in OTL, yeah it were the Comunists, noone in the Governement actually said they had to fught the Russian people, but the typical vilan was a russian if you know what I mean. So I think its safe to say that the States will be put to test at least.

Well, the Cold War was ugly period in OTL and one waged in a tripolar world tends to be even moreso. The experience of WWII to the "Greatest Generation" and to whole American society will obviously be different - I envision that both isolationism and international cooperation will gain new political significance in the internal and foreign policy of the United States.

Phönix wrote:Btw, thanks for the link, but it goes all the way up to 1980, when does this scenario start? I thought somewhere like 1955 or so..

At the moment we´ve been thinking to start from 1946 and extend the end date to late 1970s.

Phönix wrote:btw, is Venezuela etc. pro Comunist here as wel? Might be super fun if they are. Then you would have Axis Allies and Commis in America, would give for some nice gameplay expiriece as the States.

The political development in Central America and Caribbean region will surely involve Communism as well, but the US willingness to tolerate regimes supporting "hostile" ideologies in the Western Hemisphere will be even lower than in OTL. Things in Cuba and rest of the region might turn pretty ugly.

Phönix wrote:I thought Spain joind New Europe..
but the other parts are right. I belive many will try to flee from France etc... but I cant stop thinking that Germany might just let them for a few years. Thin out the opposition you know.

Franco was cautious and cunning enough to only gradually shift fully to German political orbit, same goes for Salazar in Portugal.
And the initial reaction to political refugees was "Good Riddance!" in OTL DDR and Soviet Union as well. Then they realized that the whole phenomena was starting a snowball effect as each successful escape made others to try as well.

Phönix wrote:Aha intresting thanks. This give for a nice dillema thoug. If the civil rights movement is slowed down, so will be the attempts to bring Afrika in theire sphere of infulence, and it also brings up the question of South Africa. In this timeline it could be a decent power since the States as you already said will try to look for new markets, S. Afrika is perfect, with a sizeable white populatoin, diamants and alredy build up infrastructure, it is a perfect candidate to start into Africa, on the ofter hand, it might turn into some civil war shit with them ending on comunist side... have you already deceided what to do about them?

The fact that their Cold War opponent supports ideology of political racism will truly affect to the internal situation of United States. The first targets of US foreign policy initiatives will be in the Middle-East and in former French colonial empire reorganized into Union Française led by the remaining members of the exiled Free French movement and local political leaders.

As for South Africa: Since Boers and Germany have historical links, the Reich is sure to start courting South Africa once the apartheid politics get them kicked out of the Commonwealth. Rhodesia and the Portuguese colonies will be other parts of Africa where Germany tries to expand her sphere of influence - naturally the West will oppose such attempts and to make matters even more confusing the PRC will try to spread Maoist ideas to the continent as well. For some parts Africa the changes in global balance will prove truly beneficial, while others will become proxy battlefields of rivalling Cold War ideologies.

Phönix wrote:I wnated to ask about the progress of this mod, is somthing already done? I dont know too much about modding but I know the basics, so I could help out a bit, if needed/wanted. Though I dont have too much free time.

Thanks for your offer, we need all the help we can get. Once I get the modified map from Magrathea mod, help in making the initial scenario setup would be warmly appreciated. The guy who first volunteered to do this told that he´d made good progress and then disappeared from the forums Oh well, such things tend to happen in volunteer projects. Anyhow, once we restart to work with this part of the mod you could really help in this field. It´s easy but time-consuming stuff, manually adding the borders and cores for each province, so making even parts of it (Middle-East, for example) would help us to get the basic scenario setup done.

It is easy to call the outcome of WWII a draw in Europe and victory in Asia, something the common citizens of US will be able to accept. The Nazis are stopped in Europe and the Japs have been crushed and Pearl Harbour avenged - sure it´s less than optimal situation but it´s definitively not a true defeat.

Well I guess it a question of opinion how people would react. There are whole organisations, getting funds in the hundreds of millions that try to predict how the people will react to somthing, and usualy they get it wrong when it matters , so guess this discussion is not very promissing. It is your view and I respect it.
But what do you think about the British view? I belive that the anti-war movement will become very strong, many blaming Churchill etc for an uncesesary war that has destryed the worlds largest Empire, arguing that Germany had cleary no intentions to go to war with Britan. Sure, this will happen about 5-10 years after the war, but when the last one realizes that Britan is no longer the queen of the seas etc. isolationism might get pretty strong.

Britan brings me to an other question, what will the crown be like, will it gain power or loose it or as in OTL? And what about other Kings, such as in Spain, will some monarchs of Europe return?

Well, the Cold War was ugly period in OTL and one waged in a tripolar world tends to be even moreso. The experience of WWII to the "Greatest Generation" and to whole American society will obviously be different - I envision that both isolationism and international cooperation will gain new political significance in the internal and foreign policy of the United States.

Isolation and international cooperation? arent they kinda opposite to each other?

The political development in Central America and Caribbean region will surely involve Communism as well, but the US willingness to tolerate regimes supporting "hostile" ideologies in the Western Hemisphere will be even lower than in OTL. Things in Cuba and rest of the region might turn pretty ugly.

I dont know. Starting a war with Cuba might be a bad idea. The US knows very well that the only way to take on the Axis would be with SU's help, cant see the Allies defeating them in a Landbattle alone, so alianating them by declaring war on theire allies would not be wise choise, even if they will be pissed of for the peace treatery.
And if the attack a German friedndly nation then Germany might as well attack a neutral nation of Europe, like Sweden or Switzerland, or a neigbour like Turkey, if the USA attacks an allie of Germany, then they would likley attack South Italy, would it be worth the risk?

And the initial reaction to political refugees was "Good Riddance!" in OTL DDR and Soviet Union as well. Then they realized that the whole phenomena was starting a snowball effect as each successful escape made others to try as well.

That is true, I see youre point but the situation is a bit diffrent since the Germans will be less likely to leave, those who hated it most left in 33 and now Germany is leading Europe, won the war and most of the children are educated in the proper Nazi way, so while some will still try to get away, the number of people who will try to leave should be much less then in other nations and since German dominion was the original idea of the Nazis, why not let the other nations get "thinner", would make populating it easier, by opening the borders like in OTL EU, all nice and peacefull, but with a huge German population with an average birthrate of I think 2 times as many children as in France for example. Just my 2 cents.

The first targets of US foreign policy initiatives will be in the Middle-East and in former French colonial empire reorganized into Union Française led by the remaining members of the exiled Free French movement and local political leaders.

I thought the Middle-East was pro Axis?
And the French colonies, how are they able to exist without France? Is the US keeping theire troops there, then it is a meare puppet already isnt it? Or did I miss somthing?

As for South Africa: Since Boers and Germany have historical links, the Reich is sure to start courting South Africa once the apartheid politics get them kicked out of the Commonwealth. Rhodesia and the Portuguese colonies will be other parts of Africa where Germany tries to expand her sphere of influence - naturally the West will oppose such attempts and to make matters even more confusing the PRC will try to spread Maoist ideas to the continent as well. For some parts Africa the changes in global balance will prove truly beneficial, while others will become proxy battlefields of rivalling Cold War ideologies.

SOUTH AFRICA GETS KICKT OUT OF THE COMMONWEALTH??? Seriously?
Wow... thats like a nice present to the Führer, with a ribbon and everything . South-africa is increadibly rich, and Britan was willing to do some nasty things to the Dutch to get it... very nasty things. Now they are giving it away? With Portugals colonies (which they keep I presume, since they were out of the war) it is a huge peace in Africa, and and the "good" part too, no desserts and such. I mean the apartheid policies ended in 1990 in OTL, after resistance that started in 1980, so now they get kicked out of the allies for that? Also given that there are already many who will speak out loudly against the civil rights movement, many will feel like the politicians are selling the Empire and the victory in the Cold war for minorities...
Maybe its just me, but this seams like a really strage thing, if I understood it right.

Thanks for your offer, we need all the help we can get. Once I get the modified map from Magrathea mod, help in making the initial scenario setup would be warmly appreciated. The guy who first volunteered to do this told that he´d made good progress and then disappeared from the forums Oh well, such things tend to happen in volunteer projects. Anyhow, once we restart to work with this part of the mod you could really help in this field. It´s easy but time-consuming stuff, manually adding the borders and cores for each province, so making even parts of it (Middle-East, for example) would help us to get the basic scenario setup done.

Glad to help, love this mod and would like it to be finished. But what about 1.4, should we wait for it, should be out any day now..
And yes I could help with making the borders, but I would need details of all the nations and exactly how the look like, and who has a core etc. You could just do it with a bitmap or so,

Phönix wrote:Britan brings me to an other question, what will the crown be like, will it gain power or loose it or as in OTL? And what about other Kings, such as in Spain, will some monarchs of Europe return?

I think that the monarchy will fare pretty historically in Britain. UK, Sweden, Romania, Bulgaria and Cyprus (the Greek monarchy government-in-exile) and Liechenstein (in a defense union with Switzerland) will be the only monarchist states left after WWII. Third Reich wasn´t too keen to restore old monarchies anywhere.

Phönix wrote:Isolation and international cooperation? arent they kinda opposite to each other?

Yep, and thus the debate whether US should continue to expand and defend her global status or put "America First" begins.

Phönix wrote:I dont know. Starting a war with Cuba might be a bad idea. The US knows very well that the only way to take on the Axis would be with SU's help, cant see the Allies defeating them in a Landbattle alone, so alianating them by declaring war on theire allies would not be wise choise, even if they will be pissed of for the peace treatery.
And if the attack a German friedndly nation then Germany might as well attack a neutral nation of Europe, like Sweden or Switzerland, or a neigbour like Turkey, if the USA attacks an allie of Germany, then they would likley attack South Italy, would it be worth the risk?

Cuba is still the backyard of US when the scenario begins in 1946 - supporting the legal government against rebellion is something completely different than Bay of Pigs. And the world lives in a nuclear stalemate: In the Vandenberg Resolution in June 1948 United States renewed their security guarantees to Britain and to all neutral nations bordering the Third Reich and the new German leadership sure as Hell won´t be playing nuclear chicken with the West during the first postwar decades. Additionally the remaining neutrals of Europe are unwilling to put all of their eggs to the same basket:
http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10593347&postcount=382

Phönix wrote:That is true, I see youre point but the situation is a bit diffrent since the Germans will be less likely to leave, those who hated it most left in 33 and now Germany is leading Europe, won the war and most of the children are educated in the proper Nazi way, so while some will still try to get away, the number of people who will try to leave should be much less then in other nations and since German dominion was the original idea of the Nazis, why not let the other nations get "thinner", would make populating it easier, by opening the borders like in OTL EU, all nice and peacefull, but with a huge German population with an average birthrate of I think 2 times as many children as in France for example. Just my 2 cents.

See the updates of "Chapter IV: Everyday life" for more info of this. And I was referring to totalitarian states in general with the example of DDR - it´s mostly the French and people from Benelux-countries who are trying to flee from New Europe after Zürich Accord. Yet the other governments of New Europe, especially RSI, are the ones who will bolster their border security to keep their happy citizens happily inside their prosperous national territory.

Phönix wrote:I thought the Middle-East was pro Axis?
And the French colonies, how are they able to exist without France? Is the US keeping theire troops there, then it is a meare puppet already isnt it? Or did I miss somthing?

The answers to these questions are central parts of the background story: just skim and scan the updates about the Middle-Eastern War and French Union through first

Phönix wrote:SOUTH AFRICA GETS KICKT OUT OF THE COMMONWEALTH??? Seriously?
Wow... thats like a nice present to the Führer, with a ribbon and everything . South-africa is increadibly rich, and Britan was willing to do some nasty things to the Dutch to get it... very nasty things. Now they are giving it away? With Portugals colonies (which they keep I presume, since they were out of the war) it is a huge peace in Africa, and and the "good" part too, no desserts and such. I mean the apartheid policies ended in 1990 in OTL, after resistance that started in 1980, so now they get kicked out of the allies for that? Also given that there are already many who will speak out loudly against the civil rights movement, many will feel like the politicians are selling the Empire and the victory in the Cold war for minorities...
Maybe its just me, but this seams like a really strage thing, if I understood it right.

Well actually they themselves opt to go as in OTL: "As a result, South Africa withdrew from the Commonwealth on 31 May 1961, the day that the Republic came into existence."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_apartheid#The_Commonwealth

Phönix wrote:Glad to help, love this mod and would like it to be finished. But what about 1.4, should we wait for it, should be out any day now..
And yes I could help with making the borders, but I would need details of all the nations and exactly how the look like, and who has a core etc. You could just do it with a bitmap or so,

Well, unless a miracle occurs we will be still making this mod once the 1.4 comes out, worry not I´ll provide you with the details once I get the modded map we will be using.

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